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Saw ES
Oct 18, 2016 14:57:26 GMT
Post by JeepGirl on Oct 18, 2016 14:57:26 GMT
I wish the title of this post was positive but it is not. My grandson had an important soccer game this weekend and, of course, dh and I went. There were so many dynamics at that game that I don't even know how to write about it.
On the morning of the game, dd texted me twice. In first text she said her dad and his wife were going (but I have learned to deal with them over the years). A little later, I received a second text from dd saying my es and granddaughter may be going. She said she texted him that I was going to be there and she didn't know for certain if he would be coming. At the end of both texts, she said "Just giving you a heads up." Sounds like she was concerned about me but my dd could be a poster child for a narcissist and, over the years, I have learned to understand her disorder and how to survive it. Mostly, having no expectations.
The strange thing about all this, about 2 weeks ago my grandson, who was playing at the soccer game, said something interesting. When I said I could finally watch him play (because most of his games were out of state), he replied, "I believe there will be a lot of people going to it." I, now,know he was referring to family members. But, my dd's kids never mention their uncle or cousins around me. It is the elephant in the room. I have no idea what they think. My 10yr old granddaughter texts and face times her cousin all the time. No clue how close my 14yr old gs and 16yr old gs are to their cousins.
My dh and I arrive at the field and my ex and his wife arrive at the same time and my es and gd were with them. They walked in front of us toward seating area. My gd turned and quickly looked back at us a few times. This is the gd who turned her head on me in school when I was subbing there and in the spring tried to give her an 8th grade graduation gift. My es has sent cards and gifts for kids back to me, has told me to leave his family alone and has called me hateful and cruel names (I am a "cancer", "evil", etc.). I made the decision to honor his request and no more attempts at any communication.
I sat next to my dd at the game and her dad sat on the other side. My dd made lots of small talk with her dad and if I asked a question, she would answer me but did not initiate any conversation with me. My dd's inlaws were also at the game and they talked to my ex all thru the game. Usually, toward the end of a game, they come over to dh and I and try to make small talk. Everyone there knew my estrangement situation and I felt like I was being watched the entire game. My es stood behind us and just talked loudly to others there (so we could hear) and gd did not come over to me or say "hi". It was the longest soccer game I ever attended.....just wanted it to end.
After the game, I felt like I was in shock, almost like PTS. I had prayed in the car on the way to the game and even prayed during the game. I believe God was with me or I might have just lost it but afterwards was just horrible. I did not show any emotion during the game and I believe everyone thought I was handling it well. Ha, Ha. On the way home I just sat in the car and could not think or talk. My dh was really concerned about me but there was nothing he could say or do to help me. It was totally a physical/emotional state. It even extended into Sunday. If we weren't meeting friends at church, I would not have gone. So glad I did because it helped me get out of that state.
Yesterday, I went to see my Christian counselor and it was the first time I questioned her. She is usually so solid in her advice but, as we always say, if someone hasn't experienced estrangement, they really don't understand. I didn't agree with her advice, but maybe I am still too emotional to think clearly. Any of your thoughts, would be appreciated. My counselor said, next time I should just go to a game and go up to everyone (ex, es, gd, etc.) and say "hi". And she knows about the hateful e-mails I have received from my es and his warnings to stay away from his family. Also, I have made all the usual attempts at communication/reconciliation throughout the years, to no avail. She also felt that if my es still went to game, knowing I was going to be there, that it was a "positive". I disagree. My ex, who used Parental Alienation on my son for years, took pleasure in bringing them to the game and attempting to hurt me and I believe he encouraged my son in the same way.
I also made a decision not to subject myself to a situation like that again. At the right time, I want to talk to my daughter and explain I just cannot go to games/functions with my es and family will be there. I did it for my gs (who really had no clue what it was all about) and I have done it for a long time now. Just don't want to go thru this again.
I apologize for this extremely long post. Any thoughts about this past weekend? I must say, this past summer, when I was working at the Jersey Shore, in a Christian community I was at total peace. Rarely thought about estrangement. Now it is fall, back to subbing and all old feelings are back as well.
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Saw ES
Oct 18, 2016 16:18:27 GMT
via mobile
Post by lindajoan on Oct 18, 2016 16:18:27 GMT
First, I have missed you. You always share wisdom with all of us.
This was such an unpleasant time for you. Only the grace of God brought you through it. I am also wondering how your DH did through it?
It does not sound like anyone was pleasant at all. I can see it would take a while to recover from it. I am glad you went to church. I would not decide now what you would do about attending games. The Lord will show you at the right time.
I am a believer in Christian counseling. You said you respect this counselor's guidance. Did you ask her why she felt that you should say hi to the others?
I recall how much you loved your summer. Peace is so needed in our lives.
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Saw ES
Oct 18, 2016 17:33:55 GMT
Post by luke2231 on Oct 18, 2016 17:33:55 GMT
JeepGirl, estrangement is a boomerang... Right back at you when you think you've got your emotions in control! It's especially hard when you feel like you have wisdom in your situation but others disagree, which is definitely Satan attacking your peace and rest in Him!
So my thoughts? Honestly? I'm kind of a big believer in trusting your gut. (We once had a situation with our dd and I just had this feeling something wasn't right and it should be handled ______ way, when absolutely EVERYONE disagreed with me. Turns out I had a handle on the bigger picture all along and if I hadn't handled it the way I thought, things would likely be way out of control now. And that's just one instance.) Anyway... it seems like from what I remember, whenever you've reached out and tried to do the "70 x 7 turn the other cheek/show how above the fray thing" it's not had the desired effect or expected outcome.
Personally, if you choose to put yourself into that situation again, I would be cordial and friendly-ish by smiling and making eye contact, but that's about it. I don't think that I would go out of my way to walk up and greet everyone, as your counselor says. To your ES & family, it might feel like an ambush. As someone who also listens to Dr. Coleman, if, after the first couple of years there hasn't been a softening, he recommends waiting for them to reach out. So I think walking up to say "hi" would put them on the defensive, possibly backfire, and prolong any reconciliation.
In some ways though, I think that showing up on occasion - if you feel you can handle it - and being a gentle observer might intrigue your GC, and to a degree, let them know you are interested and there for them if they should ever desire a relationship. Your son may be trying to follow along in the lines of his father by using the alienation tactic, but I would guess that there is also some curiosity on his part as well. (We're all curious as to what effect we have on others.) GC being just that, children, I'm positive they're curious about you, not knowing you personally, but only from what they've heard from their parents, so showing up a little here, and a little there may have results with them at some point.
But as you say, you don't want to put yourself in that situation again where it feels like everyone is against you. So I would sit on it, and pray about each and every invitation. I would share that with your daughter as well, because we all need to put everything before Him anyway, and you'd be modeling right behavior to her and her family. You may hear "no" for many many instances, and then one day hear "yes" because the Lord has a reason for you to be there. I'm confident that you don't just act on a whim usually, and tend to pray for wisdom in what you do!
Those are my observations; I hope I didn't go overboard with them. I agree that often we have to step back and not think too much about estrangement, because sometimes we can overthink to the point where we do damage to ourselves. That said, since you're back to subbing, try to take some time to get out of your head this week. Go somewhere on a nice walk and enjoy God's beauty.. Go to a concert... cook a meal you haven't had since childhood... take care of YOU!
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Saw ES
Oct 18, 2016 22:57:50 GMT
Post by byhisgracealone on Oct 18, 2016 22:57:50 GMT
I'm so sorry for your experience, JeepGirl. You are much braver than I am....I would never have had the courage to attend the game, knowing the pain and rejection that might result from my ED and ex-husbands cold hearts.
While I really do agree with your counselor in theory, the reality is the potential for alot of pain. As you said in your post, unless someone has experienced estrangement, it's really difficult for them to understand the fear of more confusing rejection.
Please give this to The Lord, and let Him comfort you. I agree, I wouldn't attend anymore games for the moment. You first need time to heal from the experience, and then let The Lord lead you...
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Saw ES
Oct 18, 2016 23:36:34 GMT
Post by difficulttime2 on Oct 18, 2016 23:36:34 GMT
Your counselor doesn't 'get it' IMHO. It's just a knee jerk reaction from someone who hasn't walked through estrangement....not the counselor's fault per se, just doesn't know what she doesn't know. It's so common for people who have not been in our situation, to just believe YOU can fix this ... YOU can't, but the good news is we know the ONE who can! Keep giving this to Jesus in prayer, our ONLY hope is in HIM and what He will do in the heart of our EC ... and it can change in a moment ... the waiting is the hard part for us I think.
In the meantime, while He is working on our behalf...in the hearts of our EC's, ... you need to decide if you 'need' to put yourself in a situation where you know you will be abused or mistreated. Your ES is obviously still actively 'punishing you' by his silence/shunning and your gd is a helpless victim of his decisions, at least at this point.
I think it's irrelevant whether you say hello, or don't. It is extremely difficult to act 'normal' in such an 'abnormal' situation, as in estrangement where the EC is actively shunning you.
LETTING GO is probably the hardest thing to learn in estrangement--and just when I think I've let go -- life happens and I have to do it all over again... The GREAT NEWS is that He walks through this with us, STEP BY STEP, MINUTE BY MINUTE.... Can you even imagine doing this alone? I can't. I wouldn't have survived it. Keep putting all this in His hands and leave the consequences to HIM. He will carry this burden for you -- let Him, give it to Jesus over and over again, sometimes minute by minute.
Perhaps you will someday say Hi or Hello to your ES at some future event ... or maybe not. You know, the Lord will give you the grace you need to get through whatever it is ... and even if you feel led to say Hello ... and your ES reacts horribly ... let it be what it will be.... That's not on YOU ... LET HIS BAD BEHAVIOR, EVEN HIS SHUNNING/SILENCE TOWARD YOU be between him and God. Let those offenses go by and then pray for that his hard heart will be softened. Nothing is impossible with Him. God bless you, I know estrangement sucks ... but He has equipped us for such a time as this! Hang in there!
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Saw ES
Oct 19, 2016 2:18:59 GMT
Post by 1hurtmom on Oct 19, 2016 2:18:59 GMT
JeepGirl
Not sure how helpful my advice will be as I have been a basket case all week but I will try. Maybe you need to place healthy protective boundaries around yourself in these delicate situations and way the pros and cons for yourself first?
Is this a safe place for you to attend? I know you want to be there but maybe you could go for only part of the game? Maybe sit far away from them? Or skip it?
It sounds like to me they like getting your attention even if it causes you pain. I could be wrong but if they really didn't want you to go they would have asked you to leave, right? What I do know is if you don't feed a fire it will die out.
I hope you know that its not OK how you are being treated. And that it is OK to stand up for yourself. I think everyone here would agree we all deserve respect.
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Saw ES
Oct 21, 2016 13:34:22 GMT
Post by poodlegirl61 on Oct 21, 2016 13:34:22 GMT
I keep trying to respond and my computer won't send it. Here goes... I can completely relate. My ES and his wife have said NO CONTACT of any kind. Last time I tried was last Christmas and they got extremely upset over a card I sent. They told me I better never try anything again "or else". They are expecting a new baby any day now and you better believe I will not send a thing. We have been called names as well, "Toxic" and "Evil" and two that come to mind. I would be very upset by the advice your counselor gave. "Logical" solutions don't work with illogical people. Our children are not rational, nor logical. Their minds are warped and twisted, and in my own ES's case, he has been brainwashed by his wife. You have my sympathies.
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Saw ES
Oct 22, 2016 17:50:39 GMT
Post by JeepGirl on Oct 22, 2016 17:50:39 GMT
I apologize for not responding to all your replies sooner. But trust me, they have been so comforting, full of wisdom and understanding. I am going to copy each response and read them from time to time. I am thinking about showing my counselor. We have an excellent rapport and we have disagreed on things and it has been okay. As much as I respect her, especially as far as counseling from a Christian perspective, she really doesn't understand all that occurs in estrangements. And she is blessed that she doesn't understand.
Poodlegirl, I truly wish you and I didn't have this in common. My es said I was "evil" and like a "cancer" among other things. Funny about the "evil" words they are using on us isn't it? Lindajoan and Luke, thank you for pointing out that I shouldn't make a hasty decision about whether or not I go to future games. I was just so emotional and reacting to my feelings. I definitely will take each incident as it comes and pray beforehand. And byhisgrace, difficulttime2 and 1hurtmom, thank you for your understanding and encouragement.
I haven't seen my daughter all week although she texted me about something. I just feel I need to talk to her in person, not accusing her of anything or asking for her loyalty, but trying to explain that being at that game was very difficult for me and I am not sure if I can go to others that her brother is at. And I want to tell her that I will pray about each one. It is hard because my grandchildren are aware of what is going but we never speak about it. At 16, 14 and 10 they understand but I cannot overstep my bounds and talk to them about anything or I will have another estrangement.....with dd. The elephant is just always in the room.
I will try to make an effort to be on here more because I know how valuable it is to each of us and also for new members coming on. I am sure each of you know that sometimes we just don't want to think about our situations and coming on here brings them back to the foreground. But God knows and I pray He keeps this site up and running and providing members to be here when needed. Thank you again for your replies! Love each of my virtual sisters.
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Saw ES
Oct 24, 2016 8:04:51 GMT
Post by 1hurtmom on Oct 24, 2016 8:04:51 GMT
Jeep girl I am glad you are able to speak your mind to your therapist. I went to several and non were equipped to handle E.
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Saw ES
Oct 27, 2016 1:06:37 GMT
Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2016 1:06:37 GMT
We all are facing estrangement, but the hardest part about giving advice is "what works for one won't necessarily work for another" because we are dealing with too many personalities. We know are ec, at least before estrangement and somewhat know how they think or function. In every situation we need to stop and consider what is going on , trying hard not to read more into it then there is. When you attend functions where your ec are attending you are very uncomfortable of the unknown and you are more critical & sensitive how they react or don't react with you then usual. Think about the last time you attended church or any social event among friends and not your ec. Can you recall who spoke to you or the expressions on all of their faces when they did or didn't acknowledge you? Probably not but, somehow we always seem to see all the negativeness when we are around others who make us uncomfortable because of estrangement. Hope that makes sense.
I am just so glad we know the Lord and he is on our side. He sees our heart and our pain. What breaks our heart breaks his. In a time where it seems everyone is going through such sorrow, we should be thankful that our ec are alive whether or not they respond to us or not. We still have hope. We somehow have to rise above our hurt when we are in their presence and let God shine through us by being what he would have us to be. Anything less would be stooping to their level. Love never fails and without love, it is impossible to please him.
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
We can hope for the best, but being able to show this kind of love in times of adversity, is FAITH in action.
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