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Post by troutmac on Dec 28, 2022 21:35:52 GMT
Greetings. My wife and I have been excluded from our daughter's life now for 14 months. Our daughter is now 20 years old. We're looking for help in any form… general moral support, practical advice, prayer on our behalf, resources, etc. We're not picky!
I'd like to lay out what happened, but first I have to wonder… should I be concerned about using real names in this forum?
Thanks. I look forward to whatever input you all might have.
TRoutMac
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Post by troutmac on Dec 28, 2022 22:59:18 GMT
So here's the story…
Our daughter began a relationship with a young man in late summer of 2020 when she was almost 19 years old and he was 20. It was a long-distance relationship, as he was attending college in another town. We were supportive of the relationship; this young man was from a Christian family, his dad a pastor whom I had some familiarity with already, part of the home-school community in our town (at one time), etc. In early October of 2021 I actually gave him permission to propose to my daughter. Shortly after that, things went sideways in a dramatic way. About three weeks after I had granted him permission there was a disturbance at home (Jillian was living at home) regarding something that she had done and after I called her on it, she left home abruptly and gave her younger sister a letter that had been written already, explaining that she was leaving. We're aware of some other factors that indicate that she and Glen had been planning this departure for a week or two prior to the blow-up. Jillian left without most of her belongings. Personal journals, clothes and even furniture that is rightfully hers remains in her room to this day. I arranged a meeting with her in a public place (because she refused to enter our home, said it wasn't "safe") that night, and it was then that she told me she believed that Glen had authority over her. In the hours since she had left that day, Glen had travelled over the mountains, apparently to rescue her, and he showed up where we were meeting. While he had previously been respectful to me during his numerous visits over the prior year, when he saw me he said harshly "I don't have anything to say to you." It was then that I told him (not that I thought it had any power) that he no longer had my permission. Something was dreadfully wrong with their relationship in my view. I wasn't sure what, but I told both of them that we could no longer support their relationship.
I contacted Glen's father that night thinking I could count on him to help. I could only leave a text message for him because it was late at night. I asked him to call me as soon as he could, I did tell him that I had been forced to withdraw my permission. He did respond to my text, said he would speak to his son, but he never did call me. It was clear that he wasn't going to play a role in sorting this whole thing out.
We tried to arrange meetings with our youth pastor and Jillian (and Glen) but she refused to participate. She refused to speak with us. She accused us of emotional abuse, said we were not safe, said we were 'toxic.' After about a week of living with a friend, she abruptly quit her two part-time jobs and without telling us, she went to the town where Glen was living, 3 hours away. She moved in with a friend of Glen's, a semi-retired, single woman. She'd been gone for three weeks before we had certain knowledge of where she was and where she was living. Months went by with little word from her… even through Thanksgiving and Christmas. She would not answer (and still won't) our phone calls and barely will acknowledge any text messages. We have had precious little communication with her all this time. In March of this year we learned that the two planned to get married in June, and that they had planned the event for a day which they knew we couldn't possibly attend. Glen's father was to officiate the wedding. We drafted an e-mail to Glen's father, but circulated it to close friends to make sure it was appropriate before sending it. The letter sought a conversation with him in an effort to find a way toward reconciliation. He replied with an e-mail which made it very clear that he was not interested in pursuing peace at all. A friend of mine is the President of the local ministerial association and was close friends with Glen's father when the family lived in our area. He contacted the father on our behalf in an effort to persuade him to have a conversation with us, but the father refused. The wedding went off as planned and we were not invited, nor were the grandparents invited. Jillian has barely had any contact with either set of grandparents or her younger sister since late October 2021.
Jillian will only "allow" us to contact her through text or e-mail and refuses to talk about anything important. Small-talk only. Although we've had very few text/e-mail exchanges over these 14 months, we can point to a several which we suspect she did not write.
Jillian has not abandoned Christianity. In fact, she claims to take her faith "more seriously than ever before."
She has been claiming since early this year that reconciliation is her biggest priority, and yet she has done nothing toward that end. She claims to be in the process of setting up family counseling, but started that in August and still nothing has happened. My wife and I have had about a dozen sessions with a local Christian counselor since May, which has been helpful to a degree. But still we're missing our daughter and we don't have a clue what to do besides pray, and we've done plenty of that.
Thank you, anyone, for any words of encouragement, prayer, advice, etc.
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Post by luke2231 on Jan 6, 2023 22:48:01 GMT
troutmac,
I'm so very, very sorry. It sounds eerily similar to my story, down to the "you're not safe for me" and "you're toxic" comments. My estranged child is a son, but his wife somehow became our biggest adversary prior to marriage (we weren't invited either) and we don't really know why or what we "did." Like you, we found out some things about our son and called him on it, nothing big, honestly, but enough for us as parents to question, and it's like we all of a sudden had no right to ask if his choices were healthy for him. I mean, I think I did something similar as a young adult and when my parents came to me, I was ashamed and embarrassed, but I also knew that they loved me and wanted the best for me, so I took stock of what I really wanted my life to look like. But this generation, it's as if a "normal" question (and I think with your daughter living in your house you had every right to have the discussion) is tantamount to calling your child evil. At least, it seems that way to me...
I wish that I could be more helpful, tell you that there's a magic conversation to have or way to reach your daughter, but after almost 7 years of no contact with our son, I haven't found that yet. Other than.... work on myself. I certainly wasn't a perfect parent - I had many faults. That doesn't mean that it's necessarily anything that I or my husband "did" to cause the estrangement, but I did look at generational patterns of confrontation, etc... and saw things that I could change about myself. Although this may not be you, I avoided confrontation like the plague. I would skirt issues that really needed to be discussed. I let others cross my boundaries for the sake of keeping the peace. And I'm pretty sure that I taught my son to do these things too, either directly or indirectly. Because of that, I learned to change those generational habits. I'm still working on it, but now I'm willing to have the hard confrontations even if they make me physically sick to my stomach. Again, this may not be you, but I'm bound and determined to not be the same person my son supposedly has issues with, if that makes sense. All this to say, there's a saying that you can't change anyone, you can only change yourself. In the Bible, it's referred to a being molded like clay, or sharpening iron, but the principle is still the same. We all want to be more Christ-like, find peace, increase our faith, and we find the drive to seek those things when we're suffering and there are no answers, not when life is sunshine and rainbows.
I know that this probably isn't what you want to hear, but having been a part of this sad, strange club for this long, I've learned that it's really not about YOU, but about what your child is going through and unable to deal with in a healthy, mature way. The culture is so self-centered, that even kids raised in a Christian home - especially kids raised in a Christian home! - are susceptible to a shift in values and morals. It's scary, truly, to see this generation flip "normal" on its head. So what can you do? You can let God do His thing. He's going to continue to work on your daughter's heart, whether you're part of the conversation or not. This isn't the first time in history that children turned against parents, and unfortunately you have to live through it. I'm sorry. So pray. Seek His will. Seek HIM.
Also, take the time to take care of you. It's hard to know how to act, how to BE, when you thought you were a good parent, and your child basically gives you the middle finger telling you that they think you weren't and aren't. It's not true. It's a lie. But you can't take the blinders off her, so all you can do give her to God, and learn to work on you. Be the best you that you can be. And that means taking care of yourself and continuing to live your life as best as you can. Find things that you and your wife can do together that bind you closer as a couple. Find things that bring you happiness and filll up the emotional and spiritual places that have been decimated by your daughter's actions and behavior. Be the parent still and show her that when life leaves you hanging by a thread, you can somehow hold on and thrive, nonetheless. She can still learn that lesson even if she's not in the room; she's still paying attention to how you live your life.
Sending hugs and prayers,
Luke
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Post by troutmac on Jan 10, 2023 23:10:40 GMT
Thank you for your reply. This whole thing is just so bizarre… but I guess I don't have to explain that to you. I appreciate your input.
We can't be 100% sure, but we strongly suspect that our daughter's then boyfriend (and now husband) was "putting the moves" on her psychologically for several months leading up to her abrupt departure. Early on in this drama there was a "cultish" sort of feel to the whole situation. She seemed not to be herself anymore. Related to that, we believe that spiritual abuse is a component of whatever abuse her husband has been dishing out. They attend a Lutheran church.
As you might imagine, we don't have a huge pile of texts or e-mails from our daughter, but a significant portion of what we do have, we don't think were written by her. We think certain texts or emails were written by Glen and we have pretty good reasons for thinking that. He seems to have taken her over; she seems to have lost her identity; personality. She was once respectful, compassionate, honest and humble but since she left she seemed to instantly become condescending, cold-hearted, dishonest and arrogant. It's the strangest thing. It's downright freaky.
In early February of last year we had a Zoom call with her… the only Zoom call we've had and that's the last time I've seen her face or heard her voice. But we told her then that it was possible that she and Glen could regain our support again but that there would have to be some conversations about some things. Some questions would need to be answered. But we said we were completely open to that. A month later she informed us of the wedding date they had chosen and as I mentioned, that date was chosen so as to exclude us. We own a dance studio and our year-end recital was to be on that day and Jillian knew this. She claimed the collision was accidental, but also said that it'd be best if we weren't there. Point is, they seem to have made every effort to AVOID reconciliation and have even made choices which seemed downright hostile. And as I also mentioned, his folks have likewise avoided any interaction with us and seem to endorse my daughter's abandonment of her family.
One big challenge we've been facing is that we're getting more and more pressure as time goes by from my older sister and my mother (both Christian) to capitulate almost entirely; even apologize (for having done nothing wrong as far as I can tell) for the sake of (they suppose) having a relationship again with Jillian and so that we can again have access to her and maybe be in a better position to assess and maybe help her get out if she needs to. I have several problems with that:
For one thing, we don't think it's likely that Glen would believe our "conversion." We think he would see it as insincere (and he wouldn't be wrong about that, either) and nothing will be gained. In fact, I think you could argue it would make the situation even worse, because such a move would essentially be manipulative, and that's one thing she accused us of being: Manipulative. I don't mean that ALL forms of "manipulation" are necessarily wrong… any tactic to get someone to change their behavior could fairly be described with the word "manipulative," but that isn't always a bad thing. But consider this: Glen apparently had Jillian convinced that we were manipulating her when we were doing no such thing. If he will convince her of that when we aren't being manipulative, how much more will he convince her of that when we really are being manipulative? I feel like we would essentially be walking into a trap and we would just make things worse.
There's been a lot of talk about how we should forgive them their offenses against our family. And that's totally possible. But when I read Luke 17 and Matthew 18, I see that I am to forgive when someone repents. In Matthew 18 it says that if the offender won't hear you even after you've gone through the process of involving people in the church, (as we have) Jesus says "Let him be to you as a heathen and a tax collector." But that really sucks because, well, she's my daughter. So I'm rather conflicted on just how this is supposed to work in this situation. The two of them seem to be unaware of the profound damage their actions have done to our family and they show no signs of changing their tune. They refuse to hear us, they refuse to discuss anything. We've repeatedly expressed that our door is always open, we're ready to talk whenever, but they won't come through the door. So we think that all we can do is wait.
I'm not even sure that Jillian is of sound mind when she's made the decisions she's made. That is, we suspect there has been a fair amount of brainwashing. We've spent a fair amount of time with a Christian counselor and, while it's fair to point out that she's only heard our side of things, she is convinced that Jillian has been brainwashed. Remember I mentioned the cult-like feel that this had. The outrageous lies that she's convinced are true about us help paint that picture. And so in a sense I don't really even hold her responsible because I don't think that a "brainwashed" person is responsible in the same way. Glen, on the other hand, is responsible (I'm convinced) and he has caused immense suffering; absolutely irreversible damage to my family. So forgiving him when he gives no indication of recognizing the wrong he has done seems utterly impossible; and not even advocated by our Lord and Savior. And forgiving Glen's folks when they continue (it would appear) to actively support their betrayal of us and have themselves run from opportunities to promote peace seems equally impossible.
I'm interested in feedback on the question of forgiveness and on the question of what some in our family have suggested we do (as described) from anyone with more experience with this kind of horror.
Thank you!
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Post by luke2231 on Jan 12, 2023 18:53:27 GMT
troutmac,
Please take my words as someone who is not a professional, just someone who has spent several years suffering estrangement, in contact with other parents who've been estranged, and also someone who has prayed a great deal regarding estrangement. So whatever I say, make sure that you do what's best for you and your family, and something you pray about!
To address a couple things, I think it's highly possible that your daughter, while maybe not totally brainwashed, is young. If this is her first really serious relationship, she's still young enough that she hasn't figured out how to stand up for herself. Which, when you talk about her, them, avoiding reconciliation, right or wrong, she probably felt in some way that she couldn't stand up to you, her parents, and has ceded the communication and decision-making to her husband. It's similar to what has happened to our son. We were very close, but as I said before, I wasn't exactly great at confrontation (really communicating my needs in a healthy way) and I feel like it might have been something he picked up from me. I believe it was easier to cut us off than have a mature discussion about what he needed and wanted in life. Having his wife to be horrible to us, having her as his ally, enabled him to avoid standing up for himself, because - I believe - he knew correctly that we would be disappointed in his choices. All this to say, your daughter likely feels deep down that she's disappointed you and your wife, and she doesn't know how to square that within herself. It's easier to blame you and find fault with how you've treated her and her husband than look in the mirror and see her own culpability. His parents... I don't know what to say. My son's MIL told me how she always wanted a son, and my son is the son she never had. Maybe they feel the same about your daughter?!?
So, to get to should you forgive her, him, his family... when I read the Bible, I don't necessarily see forgiveness as rolling over and letting the "offended" party have their way. Jesus had the ability to open someone's eyes to their sins yet still show compassion in His forgiveness of them. (Yet one more reason to continue to seek Him and be like Him!) Besides, I see forgiveness as something more for myself than for someone else. Forgiveness should be genuine within your own heart - it doesn't mean apologizing for an offense that you're unaware of. And if they won't have that conversation with you, then how exactly can you be expected to apologize for it?!? And along with what you've said, you can forgive someone in your heart but that doesn't negate that person still being held accountable for their offenses. Personally, if my son came to me and ASKED for forgiveness, I would give it to him, but my trust, that would be something he would have to EARN again. In estrangement, it's maybe easy to mistake the two, because the feelings are all wrapped up together. Like you, I'm not opposed to an opening in the relationship, and I will definitely take responsibility for any of my part in its breakdown, but a relationship isn't a true relationship if only one party is giving - and FORgiving!
Regarding your mom and your sister... here's my issue with what you've said, capitulating to have a relationship... the thing is - your relationship with your daughter is different from their relationship with your daughter. I'm not sure if she's disconnected from the entire family like our son did to ours, having no contact with his siblings, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins or even longtime family friends. If they want YOU to apologize so that THEY can get back in her good graces, that's not right. Part of - not all of - the breakdown with our son was caused by my parents wanting or needing certain things from him, and rather than telling him directly, they told me and I relayed those to him. And vice versa. So they were unhappy with him and made sure I felt it, and he felt guilted and shamed and also made sure I felt it. I couldn't please either and I certainly wasn't happy by how I was treated by both parties; I felt guilty for, and took ownership of things that I wasn't responsible for, instead of letting each own their own actions and words. I told you that I don't like confrontation. I should've - and I since have - made it known that if my parents or my other children have a problem with the other, I will not be a part of that discussion. I will not be the middle man. I may not know the whole of your story, but from what you've said, it seems to me that this is exactly what your mom and sister are asking - for you to do the dirty work to make it easier for them. Am I reading that correctly? Yes, you still have a responsibility to honor your mother, but if you go against your own principles, or how God has directed you to act, then you're actually dishonoring both your mother AND Him. I've become pretty good at saying, "I'm sorry that you see it that way. But until God tells me to act differently, this is how I choose to handle the situation. If you feel strongly about X, then you're welcome to handle it as you see fit." Period. I don't go into an explanation. I love them, and I honor them, but I don't owe them reasoning for how I handle MY relationships.
Realize, of course, that their actions could cause things to get even more difficult. My parents, while our son was still speaking to us, told him something I'd shared with them about him in confidence. It caused him to be very upset with my husband and I, and for a time, my parents were unscathed by their action. However, my son estranged from them when he estranged from us, so they're dealing with the ramifications themselves. I still have a relationship with them, although somewhat tenuous at times. But since I started standing up for myself, there's a respect there that wasn't before when I was the intermediary. Maybe it's different with you being a man, but we all want to make our parents happy and proud, and it's not always possible to live our lives the way they would live it for us. In a nutshell, I would ask that you seek Him first, and if it's in line with what your mother and sister want, no problem. If it isn't, then don't go along to get along, if that makes sense. Always do what He's called you to do. Don't be swayed by the voices of others, no matter how well-intentioned they are. Even mine. ;-)
Keep us posted. I actually received a notice regarding your reply to what I wrote earlier. It's been about 3 years on this forum since I or any other member has received one. So if it seems like people aren't jumping on board, it's probably because they're not seeing activity here, due to no notifications. I'm hopeful that perhaps the problem is fixed and this will be more active again!
Best to you...
Luke
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Post by troutmac on Jan 12, 2023 22:21:10 GMT
You wrote: "I'm not sure if she's disconnected from the entire family like our son did to ours, having no contact with his siblings, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins or even longtime family friends." Yes, she has. However, she has spoken on the phone with both my mom and my sister (once or twice is all) and Glen and Jillian actually visited with my sister and brother in law for an hour or so face to face back in August. My mom and my sister are trying to serve as points of contact, which is barely working. If anyone's a middle-man, it's either of them. And I don't mean to object to that, exactly… except that this whole situation sucks canal water and I want it to stop. So we get fed teeny bits of information from either of them every once in a great while. At present, I really don't even know for sure that my daughter is alive… though I don't mean to suggest I think she's dead, either. Just saying… this is how little information we get… months apart. It would take too long to explain the various reasons why we suspect what we suspect, and there are quite a few, but even so we realize we could be mistaken. That she told me to my face the day she left that he was her authority looms large. Also, a week before she left there was an incident which required us to have a frank parent-daughter discussion with her… it was 10:15 at night. He was 3 hours away. As we're talking to her, he calls my cell phone. I answered and he demanded, "Why am I not part of this conversation?" That was startling and it was a side of him we had never seen before. He was suddenly obstinate, entitled, condescending. I calmly explained to him that he has no right to be included in a private conversation between myself and my daughter. Keep in mind they were not yet even engaged. Something is really wrong with that. I cannot imagine talking that way to my wife's parents and I've been married to their daughter for almost 30 years. Incredible. On Thanksgiving we sent her a text saying that we were going to call, wanted to hear her voice, wish her Happy Thanksgiving. We called 15 minutes later and got no answer. Tried again 2 hours later, no answer. Four days later we received a text from her admonishing us for "not respecting her boundaries." This was one of a number of texts we could point to that we thought he wrote. My sister seems to think that we are the ones holding up any reconciliation because we haven't accepted Glen as her husband. I've explained to her that we have expressed our willingness to accept him, to support their relationship again, etc. For some reason my sister thinks I have to go further than that, which I totally do not get. Our daughter knows we want to talk, she knows our door is open. We've told her numerous times. She told my sister in August when they met that she would pursue family counseling. Five months later and nothing has happened. And we've made it clear that we'd be on-board with that. We think that although she MIGHT be genuinely interested in that, it seems likely that he won't allow it, ultimately… but he lets her believe he's interested. I know, it's a fair amount of speculation, but we do think it's "educated" speculation.
You also wrote: "His parents... I don't know what to say. My son's MIL told me how she always wanted a son, and my son is the son she never had. Maybe they feel the same about your daughter?!?"
Very interesting. We've long suspected that there was a big element of this in how his folks have perpetuated this travesty. They have 4 sons, never a daughter. That adds up, doesn't it? I get that it's not proof and I also get that it doesn't really solve anything. But it's still interesting.
I must've mentioned this before, but his dad actually officiated their wedding. I find it truly detestable that a long-time pastor would do that under such circumstances, particularly when he himself refused to take any step that might have led to reconciliation. Things could have been different. We might've been able to reconcile with my daughter and her then fiance and maybe they would've chosen a different date for their wedding and maybe her mother and I and her younger sister and both sets of grandparents could have been involved in the wedding like normal people. What a disgrace!
You wrote: "If they want YOU to apologize so that THEY can get back in her good graces, that's not right."
You raise an interesting possibility. There could be an element of that in my mom's thinking, although it's worth pointing out that our daughter will sooner communicate with her than with us. That is, my mom has better "standing" with our daughter than we do… same with my sister. Actually my sister probably has better standing than anyone in the family because my sister has never uttered a critical word to Jillian about any of this and my sister is the only one in the family that was invited to the wedding. And that was odd because my sister and Jillian have not had a close relationship at all. Even so, there is virtually no communication even between the two of them, though it's more than between Jillian and us. Both my mother and my sister are mostly concerned with serving as a point of contact; someone in the family with whom Jillian will communicate if she needs to… since she won't communicate with us at all. And I think that's a good thing. I will say, however, that sometimes they try to be MORE than that, and I kinda wish they wouldn't.
I've definitely noticed that this forum doesn't get much traffic, which is too bad. Thank you for your input and support. |
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Post by beth23 on Jan 31, 2023 17:22:08 GMT
I completely agree that forgiveness without the other party repenting of their behavior is not required by the Bible. Christ offers us unconditional forgiveness WHEN we repent and ask him. It is there, but not until we ask and receive it. I think it is unjust of your relatives to expect that of you, and not Biblical at all. I look at the parable of the prodigal son. His father was there, and ready, but did not chase his son down and offer forgiveness while the son was still in rebellion. But when the son was humbled and repentant, then of course the father forgave and accepted with open arms. I also believe as my husband pointed out, there is the element of Matthew 18, when you have an issue, you are supposed to go to that person and try to reconcile. Most of us parents want to do that, but our children do not. This is so frustrating especially when the adult child professes to be a Christian but is not using Biblical principles to try to reconcile, (as your daughter, SIL and her FIL all say.)
I also agree it sounds somewhat cult-like. I think many people who have had their young adults pulled away by another person, that other person has used the same manipulative behaviors to isolate and brainwash them. That is not my daughter’s case (she was adoipted and now in adulthood is working through past trauma issues but somehow the anger toward birth mom is being replaced onto us, my theory at least). I just watched a really interesting podcase by Mikaela Peterson of a man who worked exposing and bringing justice against dangerous cults for the past 40 years. He describes the personality traits of cult leaders and it seems there is a lot in common.
I am so sorry for what you are going through. I wish this forum was more active. I’ve tried to find forums that are still active but most I’ve run across are not any more. I got off social media and I think many are now operating through FB, which is too bad for those of us who aren’t on social media. Blessings to you.
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Post by troutmac on Jan 31, 2023 18:31:49 GMT
Thank you for your response, Beth. It is much appreciated. You and I are on the same page, sounds like. Thanks for the video link, too.
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Post by luke2231 on Jan 31, 2023 20:35:20 GMT
troutmac, I didn't receive notification of your previous response to mine, but I did see these last two. Maybe the notifications are working, maybe they're not. Hmmm... Regarding the fact that your sister is the 'privileged' family member, it's likely because she's the one telling your daughter the things she wants to hear. It seems to kind of work that way. As you say, she's the one who is able to give you the most information, so I would be... cautious... about what you share with her regarding your thoughts and feelings about your daughter. Even if she doesn't have much contact, you never know what kind of words she'll share with your daughter to "get" her attention. That's what my mother did, sharing information we'd told her in confidence. Just... watch your back. I'm not trying to disrespect your sister or mother, but maybe they have some kind of need to be the amnesty brokers, or the sage grandparent/aunt. People do all kinds of things with the best of intentions without really knowing why they're doing them. Estrangement messes with much more than our own relationship with our kids - it colors almost every other relationship we have! On the other side, you can absolutely bet that it's doing the same thing with your daughter; none of her other relationships will be unscathed, even her own children, when and if she has them. Again, my best advice is to take care of you and your wife. Be Job. Talk to God about it and let Him bless you somehow despite everything. Because He absolutely will. I'm not trying to be all sunshine and roses and unicorn sprinkles, I just know that He is more faithful than we are back to Him, and life can still be good. Also, beth23, it's nice to meet you! Thank you for sharing that video; I've watched some of it, and I can see a lot of similarities in my son's and his wife's relationship. There's also a guy called Stephen Hassan (I think?) who was in a cult himself once, and now helps others, including those in a a cult-of-one, get out of those situations. HIs website and videos are interesting as well. I found him watching the Lea Remini series about Scientology. The more you learn about estrangement, there's a lot of displaced blame onto certain individuals. like your daughter's birth mom, or the cheating, lying, alcoholic ex spouse. It's pretty common actually. There are some sick individuals, parents, spouses, that are great at manipulation, and some of our kids fall for it hook, line and sinker, usually because they like to please, and also try to see the good in other people. These are usually wonderful kids, close to their parents, and then, not so much. I hardcore believe that this is a very big cultural issue, bigger than just some parents having problems communicating with their children. And, lastly, there is a pretty active estrangement website - free, still! - called rejectedparents.com. Unlike this, it's not Christian per se, but there are a lot of members on there that are, you can just tell. There are definitely members that aren't, but everyone seems to give each other space to share and live their estrangement journey as they desire. Now that the notifications are working here, I hope this can grow and be active again, because when I first was estranged, this was very active and truly a godsend for me... people praying and offering support. I even "met" a couple people that I correspond with offline on occasion from here, now reconnected with their children. There's always hope! |
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Post by troutmac on Feb 1, 2023 15:45:55 GMT
Beth23 and Luke2231, thanks for your responses. Our daughter told us we were "toxic" as well, accused us of what she called "classical, textbook emotional abuse." Exact words. What's really funny about that is that about 3 months later in a rare phone conversation, my wife asked Jillian if she had ever looked up what comprises "emotional abuse" and her answer was "No." But, you see, we HAD. And the weird thing was that we saw more intersections between how Glen interacted with Jillian in those descriptions of emotional abuse than we saw with how we treated Jillian. In fact, we didn't see any plausible intersections with how we treated her. When she so carefully added the words "classical, textbook" to "emotional abuse," she was implying that she had educated herself about what emotional abuse is, but my wife's question revealed that she hadn't. Somebody just told her that was the case, and she believed whoever that person was. And of course we know who that is, it was Glen.
She also told us she needed space for healing. We didn't understand from what. She has also told us that reconciliation is her "highest priority." It might be that she really wants reconciliation to happen--in fact I think that's likely--but I don't think Glen will allow it and as I said earlier, she had been convinced long before she married Glen that he was her authority. So if he won't let her, then she won't do it.
What's really unusual about this is since Glen is such a devoted Christian (insert eye roll here) Jillian told us last March in a letter that she's "taking her faith more seriously than ever before." Apparently she found that little-known verse about ruthlessly stabbing your parents in the back every chance you get. I think she found that in the book of 2nd Opinions. Sorry for the sarcasm. She had told us that she didn't think we were spiritual enough… she didn't think we prayed enough… or whatever. But clearly these were ideas that she got from Glen. He taught her to disapprove of us, he taught her to be fearful of us. And his Pastor daddy actually helped. It's SICKENING.
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Post by luke2231 on Feb 1, 2023 17:35:50 GMT
Ahhh, the ever-used "taking time to heal." HA! Yes, that's seeped into the culture, much like "toxic" has. They're both just buzzwords, I believe, people repeat what they see/hear on social media, podcasts, etc.. All I can say is that I was young once too, and susceptible to the culture around me. Then I grew up and reality let itself be known. I tried to raise my kids to be apart from the world, but it's, as you say, troutmac, sickening, how pervasive it is, even in the Christian world. I read a quote yesterday from Elizabeth Eliot, basically... 'how you treat other people is how you treat Jesus Christ.' That's a hard truth for me. I confess that I have a lot of bitterness toward my daughter-in-law, my son, etc... And while I'd like to say that my son is treating Jesus miserably by treating me thus, I really am not much better, if at all. This estrangement has been a long time for me, and the further I am into it, the more I realize how much I still need to work on! Satan is having his way with our kids, but I will not let him have his way with me! I'm bound and determined to be as Christ-like as I can, even in the face of this horrible, horrible rejection. beth23, I'm pretty sure that the rejectedparents.net isn't the one blaming the parents, but I think I know the one you're talking about... Also - painting! YES! That's what pulled me out of my emotional dumpster too! That and travel. But sitting there, creating beauty where there was none before... it helped me be me again, if that makes sense. Are you talking to your daughter at all? It kind of sounds like you are. Does she talk to other family members? Your other two kids? How do they feel about the situation? How are you handling it with them? Is the ED the oldest? Thank YOU for posting here and sharing your story! ;-) |
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Post by beth23 on Feb 1, 2023 20:38:21 GMT
Troutmac,
That is great that you asked her if she knew the definition of emotional abuse. And using the words “classic, textbook” but she had no idea what that was. It would be funny if it weren’t so sad, and the repercussions so horrible to families.
I’m reading and working through several books right now:
Stormie OMartian: Prayer warrior and also Power of Praying for your Adult Children
James Banks Prayers for Prodigals, and Jodie Berndt, Praying for your Adult children.
I’m definitely growing closer and more dependant on the Lord.
I also love Becket Cook’s youtube channel. He was formerly gay for 20 years and had an almost Damascus road moment where he was converted at a church in LA, in 2009 I think, and now he is a really strong believer. His sister in law and mom prayed diligently for him for 20 years. he has lots of guests who were prodigals, deeply into New Age, etc and have been radically converted and restored. It cheers me up to be reminded of the miracles God can do. I know not all estranged kids are prodigals but seems there is overlap in some cases, but either way it seems impossible according to human eyes but wth God all things are possible.
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Post by troutmac on Feb 1, 2023 23:18:45 GMT
Here's a question for both beth23 and Luke2231:
Would it change your approach if you knew that your estranged child had been essentially brainwashed by a third party into leaving, particularly if the estranged child was a daughter and the brainwasher was a young man? Would that knowledge make you any more inclined to capitulate to whatever in a desperate attempt to maneuver into a position where you might be able to protect her or rescue her?
I will say that this is the logic behind my sister's ideas… even though she tends to scoff at the idea that Jillian's been brainwashed at all. And I can begin to see her logic, but I think it falls apart in a few ways.
I'd be interested in your input.
Thanks.
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Post by luke2231 on Feb 2, 2023 0:43:59 GMT
Troutmac,
Aside from the first 2 weeks of sheer panic, pain, guilt and all the other estrangement feels, I don’t think I ever considered a full on confrontation and retrieval. Granted, my child is a son, but even so, I believe that were he a daughter, I still would take my cue from the prodigal’s father - wait, hope, and pray for God to change his (her) heart. To me it’s similar to the saying going around on political sites that you’re never going to change someone’s mind by yelling at them, berating them and making them feel small. NOT saying that that’s what would happen in your scenario, except I think perhaps your daughter might feel that was the case no matter what.
I say this because my non-estranged daughter is in an abusive relationship and has forgiven her boyfriend more times than I can count. She KNOWS deep down that he’s not a good guy, and not good for her, but her brain has been literally re-wired to believe his lies. To believe that she’s not valuable. That her feelings, opinions and successes don’t matter. Believe me, I have carried out the rescue vision in my mind more than you can know, and I’m sometimes on the bubble because her health and safety are part of the equation. But every time I try to make her “see” what the rest of us see, she’s blind, deaf and dumb about it.
But God. I keep going back to that because only God can change her circumstances and her perspective. Only He can open her eyes. Maybe things have to get so bad in order for that to happen, I don’t know, but I can pray diligently, love her and be there for her and let him do the big stuff in her heart. Same for my son.
That’s my 2 cents worth.
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Post by beth23 on Feb 2, 2023 1:15:52 GMT
I dont think I would. First of all, if it is true brainwashing and she is in danger, I would find someone who is actually an expert in that area ( like the person I mentioned in the Mikaela Peterson podcast.) I don't think that the average layperson is equipped to deal with that.
Second, if you have to actually lie or stretch the truth it isn’t ethical, and I believe in the long term would be harmful.
I think there are very very few instances where it is ok to stretch the truth or be dishonest (in active war maybe) but not in interpersonal relations.
If I thought there was actual physical abuse going on I would call the authorities. But if it was just a manipulative boyfriend/husband I dont think it warrants. Just mho, your mileage may vary!
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